Do Daily Mail readers write Guardian online comments

Bit of change of emphasis after that rather po-faced last rant. Two posts back, TW put a link to Joseph Harker’s column in the Guardian.

This was a good piece, even echoing my point that slavery was the abomination rather than the slave trade, but going on to say that the legacy of slavery still impacted on British people today, through its effect on people of Caribbean background. This is even moving towards providing a decent justification for the public apology.

However, the comments that it elicited were sometimes bizarre. It’s a serious temptation to point out some of the underlying follies, but why bother? Oh bugger, I’m going to put a few quotes in anway (didn’t you just guess that?) :-

from Haardvark: “I have never read such a pathetic piece of self-pity in my entire life. “ Hmm, even allowing for web hyperbole (the cosmos knows I’m guilty of that often enough) this person has obviously never read a newspaper. (All those confessionals from celebs who find the strain of being impossibly rich and idolised by millions too stressful and have to act like maniacs, then go into rehab, for a start. Now that’s “pathetic self-pity”. Guardian writer talking about society as a whole – it doesn’t quite qualify, does it?)

From CoeurdeLion :I am not sure where Mr Harker gets all this bile – it is difficult to pick out any hard facts from his scattergun approach to writing….. I feel that Britain today is one of the least racist societies in the world today, bettered perhaps only by countries like Brazil. If you break down success in Britain by ethnicity, you actually find blacks (particularly African) doing better even than whites in participation in higher Education, with Asians doing best. Bile? I defy anyone to find evidence of “bile” or a “scattergun approach to writing” in the pretty elegantly written and constructed Harker piece. Did they even read it, or just go off on a rant as soon as they saw a few words that sparked an emotional explosion in them? No answer needed. And Africans doing better in higher education (well, s/he doesn’t even say doing better but participating more)? As I believe I said in my last piece – people of mainly African ancestry, almost by definition, are not the descendants of people enslaved for the Atlantic slave trade. This doesn’t invalidate, or even contradict in any way, what Harker says.

It’s racism that makes people of European/African/Amerindian background seem exactly equivalent to Africans. Insofar as our identities and expectations of life are partly constructed from the cultural values and experiences of our ancestors, there are few points of similarity between the lives of Africans and people from the Caribbean. The histories of their ancestors are very very different. In fact, the main thing they have in common is basically the experience of being on the receiving end of racism.

from sandywinder: When are the whingeing blacks going to start looking to the future rather than constantly harping on about the past? Excuse me, but wasn’t it the government and the Church of England that started this apologising?

from halgeel84: The doozy Perhaps the reasons why blacks have a lower percentage of persons who perform well academically and a higher percentage of persons who commit violent crimes are related, at least partly, to genetics even though it is an unpopular and very politically incorrect explanation.? Bad science alert, even – more precisely – evil pseudoscience alert. I really can’t even start to address this nonsense.

Now, there were plenty of the posts that you would normally expect from Guardian readers, in response to this stuff. So, relax, the Guardian has not yet become the liberal face of the BNP overnight.

All the same, it’s quite instructive to see-

  • a more literate version of the Jade-Goody et al vileness.
  • a reminder that racism, even pseudoscientific racism, is always happy to raise its ugly head from licking its butt, whenever it’s given the least opportunity
  • a reminder to this blog that it’s barely possible to challenge official hypocritical nonsense, without giving aid and comfort to the enemy

On a more general level, the democratisation of discussion, that has started to become possible because of the Internet , can have undesired effects. For a start, there’s always a potential Lord of the Flies-style downside. History shows that there is probably no force more repellently inhuman than a general population that believes its self-identified tribal/cultural/ethnic group is somehow more human than another group. (Slavery, Holocaust, Ruanda, Bosnia, Kosovo, and so on.)

If you are looking for a way to stir up a mass of people to support your desire to seize power or take over a piece of land, this is blatantly the way to go. (In your faces, Sun Tzu and Machiavelli, you naive rationalists)

I am assuming that these blogistas aren’t frequent Guardian readers – too many long words, for a start, not to mention the existence of a good few other papers that wouldn’t leave them incoherent with rage, every morning. All the same, these views exist and are pretty common. Some people even believe they represent non-politically correct “common sense” are what others are too cowardly to say. I don’t believe that suppressing these views is the solution. It’s better to identify them than to cover them with a layer of pink icing and pretend they don’t exist.

What do we do about this sort of thinking is another question.

Obviously, a brief but necessary culling of people who fail a simple test of worthiness to be “human” – based on their intelligence, rationality and level of goodwill towards other people – is the first thing that springs to mind.

(Note for the hard of thinking, this is sarcasm. I am being sarcastic.. Well, use a dictionary, then. It’s a bit like irony but not as complicated.)


Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$cat_ID is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 378

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$category_count is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 379

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$category_description is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 380

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$cat_name is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 381

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$category_nicename is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 382

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$category_parent is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 383

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$cat_ID is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 378

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$category_count is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 379

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$category_description is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 380

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$cat_name is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 381

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$category_nicename is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 382

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$category_parent is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 383

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$cat_ID is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 378

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$category_count is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 379

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$category_description is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 380

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$cat_name is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 381

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$category_nicename is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 382

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$category_parent is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 383
Posted in History, Rants, Society | Tagged , , , , , , ,

Remorse without retribution

There is something of a global fashion for aplogising for things you haven’t actually done yourself to people who aren’t alive to hear the apologies.

I’m all for Britain becoming aware of the bad parts of its history. All the same, most of our ancestors were peasants or the industrial poor, kicked off the land by Enclosure Acts or thrown out of craft work by emergent industrialisation orbegging in the streets or pressganged into virtual serfdom on ships, while the slave trade was going on. Are we supposed to apologise for being British? Or being white? Isn’t it pretty racist to assume that as “white” people, we are somehow responsible for what other “white” people did. I can pretty well guarantee that my ancestors weren’t profiting from the slave trade, or I’d be a lot better off now.

Racism grew as the ideology to support the inhuman treatment of the enslaved. Are we to internalise this vile belief system and think that we are somehow a different breed of human from the Africans who were captured?

There is no genetic basis for theories of race. How often does one have to keep saying this? There is more genetic variation within any given “race” than between “races.” The whole concept ignores the fact that we are all “mixed race”. Almost no people on earth have lived in isolation, without the benefits of genetic diversity, for any measurable time. The existence of a “white” race is a pernicious myth. Surely anyone with any pretence to education or intelligence knows this. If not, what are we doing in our schools?

We should certainly try to understand the nature of British racism – developed as a justification for slavery, at a given point in time, it evolved into a subtly different justification for colonialism and has continued to evolve throughout the 20th and 21st centuries to support different social forms – e.g. when the UK needed labour in the 1950s and imported lots of “colonial subjects,” it soon had to start to drop most of the racist nonsense. Racism still continues to flourish and to take new forms to reflect our different social and political situation (it’s now mainly directed at Muslims rather than Afro-Caribbeans, for instance.)

I believe that understanding the nature of racism is crucial for the future of the planet.

I also believe that apologising for things we (that is US, as living human beings) didn’t actually do is pretty hollow.

There is plenty more bad around the relations between Britain and Africa.

For example, the profits from engagement in the slave trade made England such a wealthy country that it was able to take the lead in industrialisation. The failure of England to dominate the palm oil trade – so necessary to an important phase of late Victorian industrialisation – was due to the negotiating success of African traders, who consistently got the better of the European traders as soon as they realised palm-oil was crucial – OPEC-style. this led to European colonial invasion of West Africa. Comonial rule in Africa was very shortlived but left a devastating legacy of invented states and collaborationist local elites which still impacts on African politics to this day.

If there are current resonances here, they seem to be in the realm of grabbing control of oil through warfare…… Oh, and supporting it with a belief system…….

Is there any point in apologising for all of British history? A genuine apology should surely include some attempt to make amends. Who should Britain make these amends to? The descendants of the slaves? In what form? Send money to America? Probably not a good idea.

To Africa? Surely, by definition, Africans WEREN’T enslaved. When the European powers messed up Africa, slavery was well over. But Africa could do with some assistance, beyond the adoption of its best-looking babies by female celebrities, the wearing of Red Noses and even beyond lots of people paying to see has-been rock stars.

There were no slave plantations, brutally suppressed slave revolts or Jim Crow race laws in England. These are American evils. Out of them grew a classification of humans as Black or White. This is not just patently absurd – flying in the face of the evidence of one’s eyes – it shapes our thinking in subtle ways. It is not necessarily more or less racist than the multicoloured shades of racial distinction that exist in the many other countries. It is certainly different. Most US black people would be self-evidently “white” to most Africans (outside South Afriica or Zimbawe) or North-east Brazilians. Are we so imbued with US culture that we can’t even look at our own history without seeing it through their eyes?

Here I feel that the uniquely British role in the triangle trade created historical outcomes which are quite distinct from the North and South American legacies, but that we are somehow taking the American guilt on board here and apologising for it along with our own national guilt. But, guess what, we’re not doing anything useful about it.

In fact, the UK government has made racism more or less invisible, for example, by changing the goalposts so that “anti-racism” is now “diversity,” by shutting down the Commission for Racial Equality and by mouthing siilly apologies for things that happened two centuries ago. Social equality is barely advancing. Many times more “black” kids are being excluded from school, for instance. Integration of cities like Bradford is becoming less and less likely.

Our ruling class may feel a bit better about itself for saying it’s sorry. Does this achieve anything to anyone else’s advantage? As a nation, England did a lot more to challenge global slavery, when we started to sink any ships caught trading slaves, not long after the UK ban. This actually achieved something concrete – it started to make slave trading too unprofitable to be attractive.


Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$cat_ID is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 378

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$category_count is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 379

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$category_description is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 380

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$cat_name is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 381

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$category_nicename is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 382

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$category_parent is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 383

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$cat_ID is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 378

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$category_count is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 379

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$category_description is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 380

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$cat_name is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 381

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$category_nicename is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 382

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$category_parent is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 383

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$cat_ID is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 378

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$category_count is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 379

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$category_description is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 380

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$cat_name is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 381

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$category_nicename is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 382

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$category_parent is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 383
Posted in History, Rants, Society | Tagged , , , , , , ,

Saying sorry

Difficult topic this, but at least it is taking my mind off the problems I am having trying to get Linux installed, so I will try to limit the sensibilities I offend here.

I bought the Guardian newspaper today and it has a few news items which revolve around calls for Britain to apologise for the slave trade. Page 12 (or read the online version) is dedicated to an item called “Marching to London to hear a single word … sorry” which is about a group of people on a protest march, the letters page has more than it’s fair share on the topic (“Slavery, abolition and apologies” online) and on the comments pages, Joseph Harker has a piece titled “A shameful open sore.”

All very interesting and there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that slavery is a horrific thing for anyone to endure. The activities of those involved in slave trading were (and still are) deplorable and it is shocking that slavery still exists in the world.

However, I do not for one second feel the need to say sorry over this.

It seems to me that we live in a society which is enamoured with public displays of contrition – no matter how irrelevant or empty these may be. It seems to me that it is more important that public figures keep saying “Sorry” about things, than actually being sorry and wanting (and able) to make amends. The western world is still somewhat suffering from “middle class guilt,” in that people who live reasonably affluent lives see the suffering of others (mainly others in different countries – the suffering at home is easily ignored) and create a feeling of guilt about it (I blame Catholics…). Personally, I have two issues with the calls for “sorry” over the slave trade.

The first is that, to me, this furore over the Slave trade is taking it to a farcical conclusion. The trade in African slaves to work on European plantations was horrific. It was deplorable. Sadly it has a precedent in human history. Pretty much all human cultures have practiced slavery in some form. Ancient Greeks did it (Wiki), the Romans did it, the Vikings did and so on (does Exodus ring any bells?). Deplorable it may be, slavery is certainly something which happens a lot. It can be argued that the classical civilisations were a bit less racist in their collection of slaves and that the African slave trade is wrong because it is characterised by nothing more than pure racism – the slaves were not the vanquished after heroic battles, nor were they poor people trying to ensure they didn’t starve. Interestingly, not all the African slaves were “captured” by the evil Europeans – lots were sold to them by other African nations. However, if we accept the argument that the biggest reason to say sorry of the African Slave trade is the racist nature of it, this implies that slavery is OK as long as you keep multicultural slaves…

Now, that minor point aside, if it can be argued that Britain has to say sorry for it’s part in the slave trade, I would also like to call for the Italians (especially the ones living in Rome) to apologise for bringing Carpathian slaves to Britain and forcing them into servitude. I also feel the Germans should apologise for subjugating the indigenous population between the fifth and tenth century AD (I refuse to use BCE/CE), the Danes, Swedes and Norwegians should apologise for their raiding parties killing people and taking away women as slaves, then a big apology from them for steal a patch of what became France from the Franks and invading England, deposing the legitimate king. Thanks to the Normans we have a class society in the UK which kept the majority of the population in servitude, while not called slaves the differences were minimal. In a similar vein, I am sure every world culture can follow this request to a reductio ad absurdum.

This leads me neatly to my second point. I was not involved in the slave trade. No one alive today was. Any apology I, or the PM or any other Brit makes, is meaningless. I might as well apologise for Stalin’s purges, the Tienanmen Square massacre, the Killing Fields in Cambodia or any other of the numerous atrocities in which I had no part at all. When I say sorry, what does it do? Does it mean I feel really bad and wont do it again? (Ok, sorry, I promise to never gun down Chinese students again) Does it mean the people who suffered at the hands of the slave traders three centuries ago will suddenly be free? (No) Does it mean they can rest better in their afterlife? (Meaningless and still No).

It means nothing. Saying sorry for something you had no part in is totally pointless. From my family tree it is unlikely any of my ancestors were even involved. During the slavery years, the average Briton was far from the free thinking member of an open and accountable democratic society as they are today…. It was only in the sixteenth century that Villeinage was removed from Britain (unless you were Catholic…) and even then the majority of people were too poor, too powerless and to subjugated themselves to have any opinions on the slave trade in Africa. This creates the possible argument that the Royal Family / Aristocracy should apologise but most of them are German anyway… If they were going to apologise, then the remaining African nations have to as well – who do you think the slaves were bought from?

All in all, I think slavery is a terrible thing. I feel sorry for all the people throughout history who have been slaves (whatever their skin colour or nation of origin, I dont like to discriminate) and appreciate they suffered terribly.

I am not going to say “I am sorry” though.


Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$cat_ID is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 378

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$category_count is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 379

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$category_description is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 380

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$cat_name is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 381

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$category_nicename is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 382

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$category_parent is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 383

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$cat_ID is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 378

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$category_count is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 379

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$category_description is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 380

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$cat_name is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 381

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$category_nicename is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 382

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$category_parent is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 383

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$cat_ID is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 378

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$category_count is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 379

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$category_description is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 380

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$cat_name is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 381

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$category_nicename is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 382

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$category_parent is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 383

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$cat_ID is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 378

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$category_count is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 379

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$category_description is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 380

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$cat_name is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 381

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$category_nicename is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 382

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$category_parent is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 383
Posted in History, Philosophy, Rants, Society | Tagged , , , , , , ,

Bad Science, Bad Conclusion or …

Now I have a bit of a moral quandry here. Normally I would be loathe to pass comment on research findings without having read the research in full but for some reason (well, I can think of lots) I have been unable to read the full JAMA article. Obviously I am not going to let this stop me though…

In the 10 Mar 07 edition of NewScientist the news section reports on a study into diets which is titled (in the magazine) The Atkins diet works – a bit. The news item begins:

Compared head-to-head against three other diet plans, the Atkins diet has come out on top. In one of the largest studies to date, overweight women lost most weight on the popular low-carbohydrate diet.

Now this seems reasonable enough. The item continues about how, during a 12 month study the sample on the Atkins diet lost more weight than those on the Zone, LEARN (low fat diet based on US government guidelines) or Ornish (lower fat) diets. 12 months is a long time for a study like this and it looked at 311 women between the ages of 20 and 50. The data should be great.

I have no intention of getting into an argument about which diet is the best, or even if the current western obsession with diet makes any sense at all (simple answer, I dont think it does). The thing which caught my eye was the science involved.

Without having read the study itself, I can only assume this was a properly constructed study to generate an unbiased result as to which diet was the most effective at weight loss. It strikes me, this is what the study found out as well.

You would think they would be happy about it…

Given the fact that the diet industry generates lots of money, even the most crackpot (“eat three ants a day”) diets will pretty much make their inventors rich (especially if a fat celeb signs up to it, gets surgery then claims it was your diet…) and you can see people will defend the cash cow.

The commentary about the study seems to think it has failed (which leads me to suspect they were trying to prove one of the other three diets was the best – I wonder who funded the study..) and Gardner (the author) is quoted in NS as saying:

“Was the slight benefit on Atkins due to the low carbs, or the high protein, or the eight glasses of water a day that may have replaced sweetened beverages? We don’t know.”

Is he saying his experiment construction is flawed? Were there so many uncontrolled variables that he can not explain the results? Was he expecting the LEAN (or Ornish or Zone) diet to come out best? (The Zone diet pretty much came out the worst, which is a blow for people who advocate the “equal proportions” approach.)

I am not convinced this is “bad science” as such. From what I can read, the study looks sound, but I am amazed at the unwillingness to accept the conclusions. Adding to the bad conclusions, if you are still curious, there is an entire website devoted to quotes about this study: “Best Quotes from Atkins, Ornish, Zone, LEARN Diet Study” and in here you can see some amazingly bad conclusions from people doing their utmost to ignore the results of this study and maintain their cash cow…

“This is the message of this article — focus on lifestyle and environmental factors and don’t worry about the macronutrient composition of the diet, particularly if you can achieve the NHLBI guidelines of a 5 to 10 percent weight loss,” says Dr. George Blackburn, chair in nutrition medicine at Harvard Medical School. “I think that was my message for the past 20 years.”

Call me old fashoned but I have no idea where he drew that conclusion from given the available information.

Still, have a look, see what you think and if anyone can get access to the full article I would love to know how it reads. (JAMA, vol 297, p969)

[tags]Bad Science, Science, Diet, Atkins, Low Fat, Low Carb, Medicine, Experiment, Business, Woo, Crackpot, Society, Culture, Food[/tags]

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$cat_ID is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 378

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$category_count is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 379

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$category_description is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 380

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$cat_name is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 381

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$category_nicename is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 382

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$category_parent is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 383
Posted in Science | Tagged , , , , , , , , ,

Supplemental Woe

Following on from the expose about McKeith and her crackpottery it is interesting that the news of late has been trumpeting the “dangers” of using vitamin and herbal supplements. Remember one of the main claims of the woo-ers supporting McKeith is that modern medicine kills and all these herbal supplements dont.

It seems (JAMA, vol 297, p842) that this is not the case. The report comes to the following conclusions:

Treatment with beta carotene, vitamin A, and vitamin E may increase mortality. The potential roles of vitamin C and selenium on mortality need further study.

The study found that people taking beta carotene supplements were at 7% greater risk of death than those who were not taking the supplements, and with Vit E it was 4% greater risk. More worryingly, Vitamin A supplementation appeared to increase the risk of mortality by 16%.

Now, there is a bit of a cautionary comment to go with this – this is a “meta analysis” study not a direct study, so there is the possibility that the people being given the supplements were at a greater risk of dying than the general public anyway, however one of the study group has commented “seventy percent of the participants were healthy.” (New Scientist)

Assuming this study is an accurate reflection, it is a nice slap in the face of those who push this woo in the place of retrovirals, immunisation and other “real” medicine 🙂


Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$cat_ID is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 378

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$category_count is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 379

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$category_description is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 380

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$cat_name is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 381

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$category_nicename is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 382

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$category_parent is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 383

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$cat_ID is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 378

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$category_count is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 379

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$category_description is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 380

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$cat_name is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 381

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$category_nicename is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 382

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$category_parent is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 383
Posted in Science, Society | Tagged , , , , , , , ,

Bad Bad Science

Although it only attracted minimal response here (one troll who never came back), the news about Cranky McKeith being told to stop calling herself a Doctor resulted in mountains of posts (281 last time I looked) on Ben Goldacres’ BadScience blog.

Now this is understandable as it was one of Ben’s regular readers who shopped McKeith to the ASA and resulted in bringing her Woo to the news. (Not to mention it is supported by a column in a national newspaper…)

That said, there are some striking similarities between the woo posted by the pro-McKeith (and her ilk) lobby on Badscience, the troll who stopped by here for a few seconds and the rest of the nonsense which pollutes the internet.

Take this, from badscience.net, as an example:

Ben, I think you will turn out to be just as arrogant as all the doctors that go before you. Gillian Mckeith, if nothing else, has encouraged people to realise that nutrition has a direct link to their quality of life and health. I would rather trust in good nutrition to prevent me from getting ill than an ever increasing supply of pharmeceutical drugs that cover up symptoms until they get worse. How many people do die each year from side effects of drug intervention? and what exactly was your Hippocratic oath? With all the incentives doctors get from pharmeceutical companies and the huge power those companies wield one could imagine that it was not really in a doctors best interests for a patient to get better. Humans are not machines, we are self-healing organisms and should be encouraged to remember this. Doctors are trained in body mechanics but not in healing or health and most of them are too arrogant to accept that there are other journeys to health.

I mean, that is good…. I am fairly sure it hits pretty much every logical fallacy I can think of.

The big claim goes along the lines of “if nothing else…” and this is used by apologetics of all flavour – ranging from the religious who say “if nothing else religion has made people happier” (or whatever) to the cranks who think the cruel and inhuman treatment of fat people doled out by McKeith is a GOODTHING™®. While it is (remotely) possible that McKeith has made people aware that nutrition is related to health (and if they needed McKeith to become aware of this, then I suspect letting them die would have been the kinder thing to do), this does not for one second excuse the nonsense, crackpottery and sheer, unadulterated bad science she wrapped her nonsense up in.

Creating weird rituals, falsifing science and tricking the public is not an “acceptable” means to an end.

The “how many people die each year” is fantastic. The appeal to fear there is brilliant because at its core, the sentence carries some truth. People do die of drug side effects. Side effects are called side effects for a reason. No one in their right mind thinks anything which works to treat an illness is 100% safe. The only possible reason McKeith’s recommendations were safe is because they do not do anything. This argument always pops up from the homeopathic woo-ers and it is tired and repetative at best.

This poor poster puts the nail in the coffin with “Doctors are trained in body mechanics but not in healing or health and most of them are too arrogant to accept that there are other journeys to health.” Well done.

Sometimes I despair that we allow people like this to have recourse to the NHS when they get sick and suddenly realise that crystals (or whatever nonsense they are in to) will not mend them.


Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$cat_ID is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 378

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$category_count is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 379

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$category_description is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 380

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$cat_name is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 381

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$category_nicename is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 382

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$category_parent is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 383
Posted in Society | Tagged , , , , , , , , , , ,

Food for thought

The old themes keep coming back here. We really need some startling new things to blog about. Still, here goes…..

A 14 or 15 stone 8-year-old seems to sparked a huge moral panic all by himself. The media keep showing this kid and getting really worked up about him. Oh my god! He’s obese! Government ministers have even opined on the question of whether he should be taken into care. (There was a case conference today that decided he coulld stay with his mum, for the time being and if she agrees to cut his weight and so on.)

Now, on the face of it, unless there is a lot more happening in his family, I can’t see that a fat child is really such an urgent cause for intervention. Does anyone have any idea of the kind of suffering that some kids go through, with no assistance from anyone? Has the care system suddenly become a much more favourable option than being overweight?

What is really depressing about this story is that “fat” kids often get bullied. Nothing special in the fat bit, though, kids get bullied for any behaviour or characteristic that the bullies define as an offence. Adults are not supposed to reward bullying, let alone join in and take it to another level.

I doubt if the worst child bully in the world could come up with anything like the public pillorying of the child and his family. If the kid was a criminal, the media wouldn’t be allowed to name him, let alone plaster his picture everywhere and publicly debate his weight and his family circumstances. This kid and his family aren’t harming anyone, except possibly increasing his chance of getting certain diseases. Can anyone seriously believe that an 8-year-old is not going to be damaged by this experience of being in the public eye?

But obviously, it’s more important for us to show our social cohesion by all joining together to condemn him and his mother.

(Scapegoat rituals are so bloody powerful… You would hope that rational people could move beyond them or at least use symbolic scapegoats, as the obviously wiser amd more humane people of the past did.)

His weight is probably bad for his health, but I can’t honestly see what concern that is of mine. I don’t have enough faith in nutrition to believe everything we are told about it anyway. I have my own beliefs about food and health but I would hardly demand that everybody eats what I eat or exercises as I do. I thought that human diversity was a crucial survival strategy for our species.

If it is now OK to attack everyone who doesn’t meet my moral and physical standards, I can see a dozen candidates a month due for public naming and shaming as people who shouldn’t be entrusted with kids. I would be only too happy to voice my opinions on their apperance, their intelligence and their weight. And, of course, my opinion is necessarily always right…..

My point is that I have a mass of personal prejudices, based on highly dubious aesthetic grounds. However, if I don’t like someone’s appearance or expression or voice or way of life, I don’t claim any right to impose my standards on them. This is pure self-interest, lots of people object to me and I wouldn’t like to have them impose their values on me, so it seems only fair.

This argument is increasingly being overlooked, as our society becomes ever more willing to impose health fascist criteria on everybody. We can all join in this game. Whole sections of the media rely for their content on the alleged excessive fatness/thinness of “celebrities” or on peddling weight loss and exercise programmes. The food industry is constantly working out ever more complex ways to adulterate our food on the grounds of making it “healthier.”

Guess what, as a society, the more obsessed we become with our body size, the fatter and fatter we get. That’s working out well then.

A comment on this blog took us to task for joining the anti- “Doctor” McKeith clamour, largely on the grounds that we must be “fat” if we didn’t accept McKeith’s legitimacy. And that, having assumed we were “fat”, the commenter could more or less take the moral high ground.

I always want to say, so, if I don’t break the health rules (whatever they may be at any moment) I’ll live forever then? Great. That’s a weight off my mind


Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$cat_ID is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 378

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$category_count is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 379

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$category_description is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 380

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$cat_name is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 381

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$category_nicename is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 382

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$category_parent is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 383

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$cat_ID is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 378

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$category_count is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 379

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$category_description is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 380

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$cat_name is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 381

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$category_nicename is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 382

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$category_parent is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 383
Posted in Rants, Society | Tagged , , , , , , , , ,

Stonehenge and Photoshop

It has been a while since I posted some quick edit photographs here, so I will try to make amends. These are two photographs of Stonehenge (World Heritage site in Wiltshire) I took in December when the ground was frosty and the visitors were thin on the ground. I have pushed them through a variety of Photoshop filters to create the additional effects:

Stonehenge in the Winter Photograph with Poster Effect Stones in shadows Stones in shadows - greyscale Stones in shadows - greyscale with added sepia overtone and blue overtone on sky.

On an additional note, in addition to massive visitor numbers, Stonehenge is often inundated by “druids” and new-age hippies in the summer, come the cold weather and they are noticeable by their absence. For some reason the idea that Stonehenge is a “summer” monument.

I can understand, say, 50 years ago, people thinking this but surely almost all modern studies point to any religious significance of this site being focused on the midwinter solstice?

I should point out, there are die-hards who turn up for the midwinter solstice – even if they don’t know what the correct date is – but no where near the scale of the midsummer one.

Maybe modern people just cant take the cold as well….

[tags]Stonehenge, Photographs, Pictures, Images, Photoshop, Image Effects, Black White, Sepia, Megaliths, English Heritage, National Trust, Wiltshire, Druids, Solstice, Midwinter, Midsummer, World Heritage Site, Religion, Stone Age, Cults, Culture, Society[/tags]


Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$cat_ID is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 378

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$category_count is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 379

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$category_description is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 380

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$cat_name is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 381

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$category_nicename is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 382

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$category_parent is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 383

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$cat_ID is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 378

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$category_count is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 379

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$category_description is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 380

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$cat_name is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 381

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$category_nicename is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 382

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$category_parent is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 383

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$cat_ID is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 378

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$category_count is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 379

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$category_description is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 380

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$cat_name is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 381

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$category_nicename is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 382

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$category_parent is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 383
Posted in Megaliths, Photos, Society | Tagged , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , ,

Blog News 18 Jan 07

Some early bird links to get things started:

I am sure there are many more good links out there, but these will do for now!


Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$cat_ID is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 378

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$category_count is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 379

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$category_description is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 380

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$cat_name is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 381

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$category_nicename is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 382

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$category_parent is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 383

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$cat_ID is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 378

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$category_count is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 379

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$category_description is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 380

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$cat_name is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 381

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$category_nicename is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 382

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$category_parent is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 383

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$cat_ID is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 378

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$category_count is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 379

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$category_description is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 380

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$cat_name is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 381

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$category_nicename is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 382

Deprecated: Creation of dynamic property WP_Term::$category_parent is deprecated in /homepages/34/d43362328/htdocs/ydontu/blog/wp-includes/category.php on line 383
Posted in Philosophy, Society, Technology | Tagged , , , , , ,