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Comments on: Told you so.. http://www.whydontyou.org.uk/blog/2011/09/19/told-you-so/ Challenging the Zeitgeist Tue, 20 Sep 2011 20:58:47 +0000 hourly 1 By: Aitch http://www.whydontyou.org.uk/blog/2011/09/19/told-you-so/comment-page-1/#comment-30522 Tue, 20 Sep 2011 20:58:47 +0000 http://www.whydontyou.org.uk/blog/?p=3206#comment-30522 Ove
Thanks for responding.
I agree with your concerns that local religiously-based communities may put pressure on individual women or threaten gay people. However, I think that this is something we should be able to address in democracies, by supporting the rights of anyone suffering in that way. For example, European institutions such as schools should demonstrate that they will always defend their pupils’ freedom of choice. The police and social services should show they will defend the rights of muslims, where family and community pressure are denying them human rights. I don’t think we can help anyone in that situation by victimising them further.
If we really want to promote certain fundamental democratic values – which are, as you say, “be free, be who you are, respect others” – we need to start respecting people’s choices, even where they seem ridiculous to us.
To behave otherwise is not only morally wrong but also counter-productive. A climate in which supposedly liberal democracies are contemplating banning styles of dress is a climate in which muslims are increasingly marginalised, which hardly seems like a sane way to achieve integration.
I can barely think of any religion that doesn’t have unpleasant consequences for its believers. The more fanatical the religion the worse the consequences. But I still don’t feel that we can help believers by stopping them expressing whatever they believe through the medium of dress. No matter how silly their beliefs seem to me or you.
And my point about locks was meant as part of a reductio ad absurdum. I was trying to show that we can’t easily determine the full meaning of any given form of cultural expression. So, even something that seems as self-evidently good as banning religious symbols in schools is both unenforceable and certain to lead to unforeseen injustices.
This would be true even if the burqa ban wasn’t basically just trying to plaster a layer of pan-stick over the ever ugly face of racism. Which it is.

Banning state sponsoring of devisive religious schools, yes.
Making gestures that are inherently ridiculous in the name of secularism, no.

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By: Ove http://www.whydontyou.org.uk/blog/2011/09/19/told-you-so/comment-page-1/#comment-30510 Tue, 20 Sep 2011 08:24:19 +0000 http://www.whydontyou.org.uk/blog/?p=3206#comment-30510 Its a big difference though between for exampel rastahair and and burqa/niqab. The latter is a political symbol which is used in a troubling way – muslim children are learning at their mosqe that if you don’t use iut you are not a muslim but a kafir, non-believer. What happens in school and in the streets is that muslim womens choosing to not wear this headgear are threathened, harassed etc. Even at schools there is a lot of problems with children getting harassed by other children – told to do so by the grownups. This is a negative developement for democrasy caused by political Islam – working over years through their Quran school for children which all muslim kids attend, at least in the bid citys. By the way – I’m a teacher in primary school (most of the pupils are immigrants), Oslo, Norway – and this has become a problem in the city of Oslo. So far we have not banned it – but with more incidents from what we call ” The burqa police” – fanatic muslims (they come in all colors and shape from small girls to elder women, boys and men – all told at the mosque to do their part) threatening muslim girls/womens in the street because they don’t dress properly (properly according to fanatic muslim men, that is) – their will probably come a ban. Its not only the girls/womens but homosexuals get threatened/beaten up by the same fanatics. This is actually a serious problem and in France people got enough of seeing the fundament of democracy – be free, be who you are, respect others – dissappearing bit by bit from their citys. When that is said – to banning the burqa/niqab will probably make more differences and problems – but many ordinary people feels it time for a confrontasion. Enough is enough. Will have to wait and see what happens. This is far from the end of the story.

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