Ayashi, on Heather’s behalf, thanks for your comment.

Why do we have to respect their religion/history/culture/whatever to the point of sacrifing our own it allow theirs to fit in ?

What part of our religion / culture / history is being sacrificed? I certainly haven’t sacrificed anything nor can I see how I am being asked to.

The normal flow of societies evolutions seems to be taking more away if you ask me.

i think there’s the simple fact that it renders someone anonimous while in public, it forbits alot of what is considered normal interaction

I also dont see how either of these are a problem, especially on the scale we are looking at here. Speaking for myself I rarely shake hands with strangers in the street, but it could create a cultural pressure against the burka if people wearing it found it harder to progress in business. Sadly the type of person who wears a burka is already massively disadvantaged there so I dont see how that would actually work in practice.

On my journey to work each day I share a train with countless people in bland grey suits. I have no idea what any of them look like. Their choice of clothing effectively renders them anonymous, yet it is viewed as the correct way to dress. Likewise, at weekends I often visit places where there are lots of bikers – all in a unique dress that renders them, to my inexpert eye, looking the same – and different from my idea of what is acceptable.

It’s the epinome of segregation. And that should not be tolerated.

I agree that forcible segregation should not be tolerated, however you cant force people to blend into a free society. Assimilate or die is not something a western democracy should aim for.

If someone chooses to be different from the mainstream we are, in theory, supposed to welcome that as being part of lifes rich tapestry. Are we going to say Goths and Punks are not allowed to dress as they choose?

If they are so high on Quran and islam why no go to a Islamic run country, see how wonderful it is there ?

Maybe its because they thought they could go to a free democracy where they would be allowed to live as they want rather than be forced to live in a certain manner by the state.

How wrong they were.

lol…i was only stating a truth that I thought a certain way (not too far from your way) before moving to a particular place but don’t think the same way after having lived there.

Indeed, and in a similar vein prior to spending a large portion of my life in hot and dusty countries I used to have a viewpoint very similar to yours. However, after meeting more and more people from different cultures I realised that my idea wasn’t always the same as everyone elses.

Hope you’re keeping score because I’m not…

Score on what?

Blah blah blah…

Excellent response.

You strongly (seemingly almost militantly) support something that I view as a human rights abuse.

On the contrary. I am sorry if I have given you the idea that I thought people should wear a burka. I had (obviously incorrectly) thought I’d stated that I thought it was oppressive.

As I have stated repeatedly, and you so succinctly condensed into Blah blah blah…, being forced into wearing something against you will is oppressive and abusive. Being forced to not wear something that you want to wear is oppressive and abusive.

There is no truth as I chose to see it. There are some simple facts – and there is no difference in oppression between You Must Wear XYZ and You Must Not Wear XYZ. If you think that oppressing a certain subgroup of Muslim women with your particular sartorial code is not-oppressive then you are mistaken.

I am not, for one moment, upset by your point of view. Why should I be?

I’m done…you win.

Ok. While I never viewed it as battle which would have winners and losers, thank you.

Here you have massively misstated my position, and I assume Heather’s position. I am not “apologetically excusing” the burka. I would never choose to wear it and I would hope my daughters never chose to wear one.
Sorry…maybe I used the wrong word there…I meant apologIST, not apologetic. I do apologize.

Blah blah blah…All the anger vibes are getting a bit much for me. You strongly (seemingly almost militantly) support something that I view as a human rights abuse. I’ve already stated that we have diametrically opposed views, but you keep trying to make me see the truth you choose to see. I’m happy for you to believe what you like. I’m very sorry it upsets you so much that I believe what I believe…..

I’m done…you win. 🙂

Well, why didn’t you SAY so??

Heather did say so; a couple of times.

no more oppression for THIS girl, I can tell you, and both of these particular items of attire will prove to the world that I am NOT oppressed.

The irony is that it will prove you are not oppressed. You live in a society where you get to choose what you wear, not the government. You are calling for a change in this to make a world where the government gets to say what you can and can not wear.

And you do this in the name of fighting oppression.

On a very serious note, you’re absolutely right…women should be free to allow themselves to be oppressed anywhere in the world, especially France.

On an even more serious note, sarcasm aside, you are calling for the replacement of one form of oppression over another. Oppression by white French men is not inherently better than oppression by people in their own ethnic group.

It seems like you have become so accustomed to your own freedoms and choices, that you no longer see them as such.

On a very serious note, you’re absolutely right…women should be free to allow themselves to be oppressed anywhere in the world, especially France. Thanks for your insight…I see the light now.

But i CAN see the reason for the burka…it’s oppression…haven’t you been listening?

I have been listening. You have stated, repeatedly, the burka is oppressive. I dont really disagree with this, however the crucial point is that SOME people willingly choose to wear this item of clothing. Why they do this may well be alien to you or I, but it doesn’t make it wrong for them to want to dress in this manner.

I want to restate something I think is a very, very important point here. Taking away someone’s choices (in this case of clothing) is oppressive. Forcing someone to wear a burka is oppressive. Forcing someone NOT to wear a burka is oppressive.

Foot binding was a cultural thing in China…does its cultural basis make it any less cruel than it was?

No. That is not the issue. If person X willingly chooses to undergo a certain cultural ritual, does that make it something we should ban?

Choice is the key part of the debate here. Forcing someone to do something against their will is oppressive. Forcing someone to NOT wear a burka is oppressive.

The burqa is cruel.

To echo a phrase you have used several times, are you equating wearing a burka with having your feet bound until they are permanently disfigured?

What is your response to women who say they want to wear a burka?

I don’t really know if the right answer is to legislate the burqa’s banishment,

It isnt.

but your apologetic excusing it as a freedom, all in the name of tolerance and multiculturalism, will certainly not help the burqa’s proponents to figure out that it’s so last human age.

Here you have massively misstated my position, and I assume Heather’s position. I am not “apologetically excusing” the burka. I would never choose to wear it and I would hope my daughters never chose to wear one.

Banning clouds the issue of freedoms, as is shown by this thread. Banning something does not give people more freedoms and does not remove oppression. It sends a signal to the oppressed that they continue to be oppressed, but now not only by their own culture but by the culture which claims it wants to free them. I am sure that is not a goal any of us actually want.

Very good bit of condescention and presumption…I like it.

Thank you. It was styled on your previous comment.

What, pray, have you learned about how different cultures interact with each other? Is this about cultural interaction? Or is it about recognising a cultural injustice and attempting to do something about it?

Lots and both. One of the first things I learned was that just because I found something strange and crazy, didn’t mean people from other cultures would think the same. I have no tattoos and find them strange and alien, why anyone would want endure pain solely to scar themselves for life is beyond me. Despite this there are people the world over who get tattoos..

Comparing high heels with burqas is ridiculous at best…they represent opposite ends of the freedom spectrum. High heels allow us to express and accentuate our sensuality if we so choose.

They are not at opposite ends of the freedom spectrum, you think they are because you have a preference for one over the other. A burka allows a woman to mask her sexuality from onlookers should she so wish, while high heels are used to enhance that. In a free society, both are choices a woman can make. In an oppressive society they aren’t. Banning a burka is not the act of a free society.

I know you’re just trying to make a point (I hope so anyhow…otherwise, I’d have serious questions about your IQ), but it isn’t washing.

I am sure you have serious questions about my IQ anyway, but it doesnt matter. You missed the point I was trying to make.

Some women are happy to exaggerate their sexuality and to alter their appearance when in public. There is nothing wrong with this. Some women wish to go to the opposite extreme, and again there is nothing wrong with this. Most women will fall somewhere between each end – again this is OK.

If we ban one extreme – on what ever grounds – then why not the other extreme? More people in the UK suffer serious injury as a result of wearing high heels than burkas. More women suffer long term damage as a result of high heels than burkas. High heels serve no purpose other than to enhance a woman’s sensuality in the eyes of people around her. There are no jobs made easier by wearing high heels and no “good reasons” other than the cultural pressure women are under to “look good.”

That sounds mightily oppressive to me, but we don’t ban them because in western eyes forcing women to over emphasise their gender and appearance is considered a good thing.

Its ironic that we would berate and deride a middle eastern country that banned short skirts, short tops and high heels on women, as being oppressive – but we think banning burkas is ok.

SERiously? You’re comparing the sweat-inducing, vision-obscuring, de-humanizing, de-individualising, de-sexualising burqa to a dress?

Erm, yes. Re-read what you are saying and you can see it is only in a western cultural context. The utility of most womens clothes is beyond a joke, so vision obscuration, while a problem, is equated with the restriction in basic range of movement caused by a fashionable dress. Try running in high heels and a mini skirt to see how useless these items are.

If de-individualisation is the key – then this applies to the vast majority of western clothes. I spent most of my adult life in uniform – pretty deindividualising, but hey? no one will ban that. I now work in an office where pretty much everyone wears the same style of clothing. Shopping at Gap is not “individualistic.”

De-sexualising – is not a bad thing. Women wear trouser suits and countless items of clothing that do not exaggerate their gender. If only women wear a burka it is not de-sexualising.

As for sweat inducing, try wearing a dark suit on a summers day. The sooner we can ban them the better.

You have no concept of degrees, do you?

Actually, yes I do.

And you’ll never know just how oppressive a burqa really is because you’re too afraid to wear one, even on an experimental basis.

You have no idea if I have ever worn one or even something similar. You need to stop jumping to conclusions based on your own experiences.

For example, do you assert that no woman would willingly wear a burka? If so, and I could show you at least one woman who does willingly wear it, would you concede the point?

and not in a good way? can racism and sexism be good?

No, I was making a joke about a previous comment.

It’s not racist anyhow…Islam crosses all races, doesn’t it? And not all Muslim men imprison their women in burqas.

The burka is not fundamental to Islam, as you say yourself. A ban on burkas would only really affect a group of women from a limited cultural group or race. How is it not racist or sexist?

Imagine a similar ban on Amish dresses (damn, they chafe while you are collecting the grain), or african neck rings (enforced deformity)…

Can you really not see the contradiction between
(a) recognising that old chinese footbinding was bad (because it involved deforming feet)
(b) “High heels allow us to express and accentuate our sensuality if we so choose.” (By deforming our feet and damaging our bone structure? How delightfully sensual. )

What precisely is the difference – western cultural values.

The burqa represents – in a cloth format – aititudes to women in some cultures. No one would be more supportive of the desire to reject it than I would, when that choice comes from the women who object to it. In countries where it is is culturally or legally enforced.

The French case is completely different. Women who choose to wear the burqa in France for reasons they feel as valid (cultural identity for instance: maybe they feel it accentuates their sensuality, ffs.) should not be denied that choice.

The burqa-banning is racist – not because Muslims are a “race” There are no such things as races, in any case. It is racist under the United Nations definition of racism. As I said, read the wikipedia definitions.

But i CAN see the reason for the burka…it’s oppression…haven’t you been listening?

Foot binding was a cultural thing in China…does its cultural basis make it any less cruel than it was? The burqa is cruel. I don’t really know if the right answer is to legislate the burqa’s banishment, but your apologetic excusing it as a freedom, all in the name of tolerance and multiculturalism, will certainly not help the burqa’s proponents to figure out that it’s so last human age.

“before I learned more about how different cultures interact with each other.” Very good bit of condescention and presumption…I like it. What, pray, have you learned about how different cultures interact with each other? Is this about cultural interaction? Or is it about recognising a cultural injustice and attempting to do something about it?

Comparing high heels with burqas is ridiculous at best…they represent opposite ends of the freedom spectrum. High heels allow us to express and accentuate our sensuality if we so choose. I know you’re just trying to make a point (I hope so anyhow…otherwise, I’d have serious questions about your IQ), but it isn’t washing.

“Lots of Christian fundamentalist groups prohibit their female members from wearing anything other than skirts and dresses. This is, in no uncertain terms, oppressive behaviour with no basis on their religious doctrine. Surely the only way we can free these women is to ban the wearing of skirts and dresses. They may be useful in the summer, but provide no protection from the cold and are cumbersome for lots of daily tasks. No woman in her right mind would wear them so it must only be through religious oppression from her immediate cultural groups that cause it. Banning them would show this sort of oppression is not tolerated.”
SERiously? You’re comparing the sweat-inducing, vision-obscuring, de-humanizing, de-individualising, de-sexualising burqa to a dress? You have no concept of degrees, do you? And you’ll never know just how oppressive a burqa really is because you’re too afraid to wear one, even on an experimental basis.

“Banning an item of clothing only worn by “brown women” is both racist and sexist, and not in a good way.”
…and not in a good way? can racism and sexism be good? It’s not racist anyhow…Islam crosses all races, doesn’t it? And not all Muslim men imprison their women in burqas. How is it sexist to try to rid the world of misogynistic tools of oppression?

*sigh* You are you and I am I, and ne’er the twain shall meet……….

In conclusion,
“Why dont we look at banning high heeled shoes? These items serve no purpose ….”
Serve no purpose??? They make me look HOT! lol

I do think that banning what I see as a human rights abuse (which I don’t in fact think the women would choose to wear if not for the oppressive cultural pressure) would send a clear message that we don’t accept the oppression.

This is a key issue but there seem to be a mix of points here..

Forcing a female member of your family to wear a certain item of clothing is certainly abusive. There are laws currently in place in most of Europe to protect women in this sort of situation.

Stating that women are prohibited by law to wear an item of clothing that You find offensive is most certainly an abuse. Just because neither you nor I would voluntarily wear it doesn’t mean no woman would ever choose to wear it. The argument that any woman who chooses to wear a burka is weak as well.

Abusing rights does not send a message that we dont like the abuse of rights. It says to Muslim women in France that they have no input into society and that the white men running the country get to call the shots on how they dress.

This is not a good thing.

Calling the burka a freedom of choice is a complete fallacy.

Why? What research has been conducted to show no women voluntarily wear a burka?

You say your wearing it would be meaningless…good use of dismissal. I disagree and think you might after wearing it for a week…go on….try it.

This is still nonsense. I was dismissing it because it made no sense. There are dozens of items of clothes I would not willingly wear for an hour, let alone a week yet you do not demand any of them are banned. Why not?

Why dont we look at banning high heeled shoes? These items serve no purpose and have been shown to cause injury to women who wear them long term. Their use, even in the short term, damages toes and heels. Wearing them increases the risks of accidents and they are only worn because women think it makes their legs look more shapely or gives them an apparent increase in height.

Shall we ban these? They are an oppressive item forced upon women by cultural pressure and no woman in her right mind would ever willingly wear a pair. I mean, would any man walk around in them for a week? I certainly wouldn’t. I cant imagine why any one would suffer that much so it must be oppression. By banning women from wearing high heeled shoes we will send a sign that we are opposed to oppressing women’s choices.

Why stop there?

From http://web.archive.org/web/20071102091508/http://www.sspx.ca/Documents/Bishop-Williamson/September1-2001.htm

Canadians strike me as a gentle people; but “strike” is the word! Ten yeas ago I was innocently asked in Canada whether women should wear trousers. … The deep-down reason is the same as for the wrongness of women’s trousers: the unwomaning of woman.

Lots of Christian fundamentalist groups prohibit their female members from wearing anything other than skirts and dresses. This is, in no uncertain terms, oppressive behaviour with no basis on their religious doctrine. Surely the only way we can free these women is to ban the wearing of skirts and dresses. They may be useful in the summer, but provide no protection from the cold and are cumbersome for lots of daily tasks. No woman in her right mind would wear them so it must only be through religious oppression from her immediate cultural groups that cause it. Banning them would show this sort of oppression is not tolerated.

We could go on for some time here.

Basically, no matter how you try, two wrongs do not make a right and just because you cant see a reason for an item of clothing doesn’t mean other people wont willingly wear it.

Banning an item of clothing only worn by “brown women” is both racist and sexist, and not in a good way.