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Comments on: Browsers found to be made from china http://www.whydontyou.org.uk/blog/2008/12/07/browsers-found-to-be-made-from-china/ Challenging the Zeitgeist Tue, 16 Dec 2008 22:54:01 +0000 hourly 1 By: A big “d’oh,” maybe » Why Dont You Blog? http://www.whydontyou.org.uk/blog/2008/12/07/browsers-found-to-be-made-from-china/comment-page-1/#comment-14570 Tue, 16 Dec 2008 22:54:01 +0000 http://www.whydontyou.org.uk/blog/?p=2152#comment-14570 […] seems like only last week that I was whining that browsers were disintegrating like so many smashed plates at a Greek […]

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By: Danny http://www.whydontyou.org.uk/blog/2008/12/07/browsers-found-to-be-made-from-china/comment-page-1/#comment-14494 Mon, 08 Dec 2008 14:26:17 +0000 http://www.whydontyou.org.uk/blog/?p=2152#comment-14494 So, you’re problem with Opera is that you don’t remember your passwords? Darn, I can see that my favorite browser isn’t perfect after all. :p

BTW, no memory problems here. And I can keep Opera with 20+ tabs on overnight. 🙂

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By: Michael http://www.whydontyou.org.uk/blog/2008/12/07/browsers-found-to-be-made-from-china/comment-page-1/#comment-14492 Mon, 08 Dec 2008 02:03:10 +0000 http://www.whydontyou.org.uk/blog/?p=2152#comment-14492 s original scheme, but I had the idea that displaying pages and following hyperlinks to open URLs were the whole points of a browser. I don’t care what else they can do." Actually you do care - for example you complain that ie6 doesn't implement style-sheets properly. ;-) Style sheets contain no information, merely presentation ... (although often they are important to making the information readable). Unfortunately, rendering the web `properly' has become an almost impossible task. The original semantic content idea was hijacked by designers and artists as soon as there was money to be made. So a 'web browser' went from being an information navigation device to including complex type-setting and layout systems. Add in some scripting system and now you've got what amounts to a whole virtual operating system running in a window, with a compositing graphics engine, typesetting system, animation system and widget library all sitting on top (along with persistent data storage, network access layer, security and authentication subsystem, customisation, etc etc). And all of these standards are in constant revision and expansion and subject to mis-implementation which needs to be copied if the competition did it first. Even just displaying a simple line of text requires a staggering amount of code - xml/html parsing to unicode, unicode character to glyph conversion, basic layout and justification based on glyph metrics, font outline renderers, anti-aliasing and compositing into the displayed graphic. And they can't even agree on something as well specified as unicode - windows-based editors often use the wrong character set so quotes are encoded incorrectly. And then on-top of the basic difficulty of the problem in the first place, add on the intentional incompatibilities added by a certain vendor to try to control the market ("see, you can't use mozilla, it doesn't show this page properly"), and it's a wonder they manage to get anything to work at all.]]> I can’t say i’ve had your level of crash experiences – ff regularly runs all day at work (dozens of tabs open) or for weeks at home (gnu). The only plugin i use is flashblock though.

“I must have misunderstood Tim Berners-Lee’s original scheme, but I had the idea that displaying pages and following hyperlinks to open URLs were the whole points of a browser. I don’t care what else they can do.”

Actually you do care – for example you complain that ie6 doesn’t implement style-sheets properly. 😉 Style sheets contain no information, merely presentation … (although often they are important to making the information readable).

Unfortunately, rendering the web `properly’ has become an almost impossible task. The original semantic content idea was hijacked by designers and artists as soon as there was money to be made. So a ‘web browser’ went from being an information navigation device to including complex type-setting and layout systems. Add in some scripting system and now you’ve got what amounts to a whole virtual operating system running in a window, with a compositing graphics engine, typesetting system, animation system and widget library all sitting on top (along with persistent data storage, network access layer, security and authentication subsystem, customisation, etc etc). And all of these standards are in constant revision and expansion and subject to mis-implementation which needs to be copied if the competition did it first.

Even just displaying a simple line of text requires a staggering amount of code – xml/html parsing to unicode, unicode character to glyph conversion, basic layout and justification based on glyph metrics, font outline renderers, anti-aliasing and compositing into the displayed graphic.

And they can’t even agree on something as well specified as unicode – windows-based editors often use the wrong character set so quotes are encoded incorrectly.

And then on-top of the basic difficulty of the problem in the first place, add on the intentional incompatibilities added by a certain vendor to try to control the market (“see, you can’t use mozilla, it doesn’t show this page properly”), and it’s a wonder they manage to get anything to work at all.

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By: Badger3k http://www.whydontyou.org.uk/blog/2008/12/07/browsers-found-to-be-made-from-china/comment-page-1/#comment-14491 Mon, 08 Dec 2008 01:49:43 +0000 http://www.whydontyou.org.uk/blog/?p=2152#comment-14491 I use Safari for most things, and rarely have issues with it. I have to use Firefix to grade my students work, as the program is built on Firefix, but it hasn’t caused too many problems for me (now, for the Windows computers….a bit). IE has been buggy for some many years I refuse to use it unless I have to, and if I run into a site that requires it, I leave. If the owners of the site don’t want me there, I’m not going to waste my time.

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By: Andrew http://www.whydontyou.org.uk/blog/2008/12/07/browsers-found-to-be-made-from-china/comment-page-1/#comment-14487 Sun, 07 Dec 2008 22:54:31 +0000 http://www.whydontyou.org.uk/blog/?p=2152#comment-14487 I like Chrome as a default browser: I don’t want to load a massive application every time I click a link, because that’s infuriating. Chrome is pleasingly fast at that.

It does somewhat astonish me that nobody has yet managed to write a good browser, though. Chrome seems to be the closest attempt so far in terms of not trying to do too much besides browsing (especially if you turn off the ‘new tab’ page) but it’s too young yet.

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By: XanderG http://www.whydontyou.org.uk/blog/2008/12/07/browsers-found-to-be-made-from-china/comment-page-1/#comment-14483 Sun, 07 Dec 2008 19:50:44 +0000 http://www.whydontyou.org.uk/blog/?p=2152#comment-14483 I still think safari is your best bet for a browser: http://www.apple.com/safari/download/

It’s either that or lynx: http://csant.info/lynx
😛

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By: TW http://www.whydontyou.org.uk/blog/2008/12/07/browsers-found-to-be-made-from-china/comment-page-1/#comment-14481 Sun, 07 Dec 2008 17:19:29 +0000 http://www.whydontyou.org.uk/blog/?p=2152#comment-14481 I have IE8 and it dies on every fourth or fifth link. Opening a link in a new tab is routinely fatal.

FF crashes every single time I try to close it. Every time. No matter what I do. Around 1 in eight links kill it for no apparent reason.

I have safari – which doesn’t so much crash as just be erratic. Sometimes it displays pages, sometimes it doesnt. Sometimes it uses the stylesheet, sometimes it doesnt.

Opera is the most stable but it is a brutal memory hog. It is no longer the sleek, fast, lightweight brower of yesteryear. Now it uses more system resources than IE.

I have opera on my phone. It is terrible. It displays pages in a weird way – fitting the height rather than the width, so the text is about 1/100000th of a point and not readable. Zooming improves things but is still a PITA.

Chrome isn’t bad. It is fast and doesn’t eat ram. It does try to “help” to much though. I haven’t used it enough to say much more though.

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