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Comments on: New enemy of reason? http://www.whydontyou.org.uk/blog/2007/08/06/new-enemy-of-reason/ Challenging the Zeitgeist Tue, 07 Aug 2007 06:24:39 +0000 hourly 1 By: John B. http://www.whydontyou.org.uk/blog/2007/08/06/new-enemy-of-reason/comment-page-1/#comment-8130 Tue, 07 Aug 2007 06:24:39 +0000 http://www.whydontyou.org.uk/blog/2007/08/06/new-enemy-of-reason/#comment-8130 I finally made it back to the link provided by Black Sun in comment number 3, taking you to his absolutely wonderful post. Talk about a great job of “deconstructing”! I have to recommend everyone to go check it out. It’s very, very poweful. GREAT JOB, Black Sun.

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By: John B. http://www.whydontyou.org.uk/blog/2007/08/06/new-enemy-of-reason/comment-page-1/#comment-8129 Tue, 07 Aug 2007 05:38:24 +0000 http://www.whydontyou.org.uk/blog/2007/08/06/new-enemy-of-reason/#comment-8129 The guys name is Charles Harper, senior vice-president of the John Templeton Foundation. You can see him tossing in his two cents during Q&A throughout the conference (a paritcularly interesting one of those is right after VS Ramachandran’s talk in Session 4, where he is set in his place nicely by a comment from mild-mannered Neil deGrasse Tyson). He gives his own talk in Session 8, immediately after Sir Harry Kroto. He has to leave the conference at that point, but he get roundly blasted during the Q&A by Dawkins among several others.

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By: John B. http://www.whydontyou.org.uk/blog/2007/08/06/new-enemy-of-reason/comment-page-1/#comment-8124 Mon, 06 Aug 2007 21:20:54 +0000 http://www.whydontyou.org.uk/blog/2007/08/06/new-enemy-of-reason/#comment-8124 Oh, OK… then you can feel free to delete my second posting of basically the same comment. It makes me appear even more ignorant than I actually am!

By the way, the link is for the entire 15 or so hours of the Beyond Belief Conference. I watched the entire thing – it was THAT GOOD. But I’ll find the part that was just about the Templeton guy and get it to you. He was actually fairly interesting though I totally disagreed with him as did nearly everyone at the conference, which you will see if you end up watching it. The link is nicely divided up into the various sections, in the order they occurred, so you need not slog through the whole thing but just pick and choose the speakers you’d like to see.

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By: Heather http://www.whydontyou.org.uk/blog/2007/08/06/new-enemy-of-reason/comment-page-1/#comment-8122 Mon, 06 Aug 2007 20:10:40 +0000 http://www.whydontyou.org.uk/blog/2007/08/06/new-enemy-of-reason/#comment-8122 Thanks for the kind comments and information.

John B
I got your comments back but only by deleting the link.
http://beyondbelief2006.org/watch/
http://beyondbelief2006.org/watch/
The commenting plug in seems to hate some links and just refuses to show the post.
I will delete one of them now I’ve miraculously restored them to life.

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By: John B. http://www.whydontyou.org.uk/blog/2007/08/06/new-enemy-of-reason/comment-page-1/#comment-8119 Mon, 06 Aug 2007 19:02:05 +0000 http://www.whydontyou.org.uk/blog/2007/08/06/new-enemy-of-reason/#comment-8119 t tell us anything because it leads to “scientism” a dubious “ism” that may have been invented for the purposes of the column." Unfortunately, it wasn't invented for this column as I'm guessing Black Sun gets into in his rebuttal (I'll check the link later). I've been hearing it more and more the past couple of years from those who support Religionism (we can play that one too). I heard some guy from Templeton dropping the term several times when he spoke at the 2006 Beyond Belief Conference. Heather is quite right (although I'm no expert either) that Darwin never said anything about ultimate origins, just origins of species (once there WAS life, how it evolved into the various species that have lived and do live). Are Dawkins never has claimed otherwise. Origins of life is a different, albeit related, subject that is continually be worked on and there are some really interesting theories though none of them is yet as rock-solid as the Darwinian theory of species. That's all side issue though. The point I get from your post is that there is a whole lot of Orwellian double speak going on here when we start claiming that religion = reason and science = dogma. Again - WOW.<del datetime="2007-08-06T20:11:41+00:00"></del>]]> Yes, I agree with Black Sun – good deconstruction. Wow.

Wow.

Heather said: “science can’t tell us anything because it leads to “scientism” a dubious “ism” that may have been invented for the purposes of the column.”

Unfortunately, it wasn’t invented for this column as I’m guessing Black Sun gets into in his rebuttal (I’ll check the link later). I’ve been hearing it more and more the past couple of years from those who support Religionism (we can play that one too). I heard some guy from Templeton dropping the term several times when he spoke at the 2006 Beyond Belief Conference.

Heather is quite right (although I’m no expert either) that Darwin never said anything about ultimate origins, just origins of species (once there WAS life, how it evolved into the various species that have lived and do live). Are Dawkins never has claimed otherwise. Origins of life is a different, albeit related, subject that is continually be worked on and there are some really interesting theories though none of them is yet as rock-solid as the Darwinian theory of species.

That’s all side issue though. The point I get from your post is that there is a whole lot of Orwellian double speak going on here when we start claiming that religion = reason and science = dogma.

Again – WOW.

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By: The Vicar http://www.whydontyou.org.uk/blog/2007/08/06/new-enemy-of-reason/comment-page-1/#comment-8116 Mon, 06 Aug 2007 15:55:08 +0000 http://www.whydontyou.org.uk/blog/2007/08/06/new-enemy-of-reason/#comment-8116 Re: G. K. Chesterton

Chesterton wasn’t a right-winger; he just belonged to groups which have moved rightward consistently since his death, such as the Catholic church. A few salient points:

Chesterton was an agrarian populist — if he lived today, chances are very good that he would be an environmentalist strictly on the grounds that the land must be preserved from harm.

Chesterton was both anti-big business and anti-imperialist — read “Four Faultless Felons” (still in print) for some pretty strong stuff. (He was admittedly also racist, but find me a british mainstream author before 1960 who wasn’t)

Chesterton protested the Boer War at the height of its popularity, which would be roughly the equivalent of picketing the Bush white house in 2002.

Chesterton died in 1936 while on a tour to speak against the Nazis — the more he learned about them, the more dangerous he considered them, and so he continued his tour despite becoming increasingly ill.

(It should also be remembered that Chesterton died before Pius XII became Pope and the Catholic church decided to cuddle up to the Nazis.)

I’m not excusing his racism, or indeed his devotion to the Catholic church. I’m just saying: if Chesterton lived today, and had the same opinions, then (after his head finished exploding over the direction of the Catholic church) he would probably be left of center.

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By: BlackSun http://www.whydontyou.org.uk/blog/2007/08/06/new-enemy-of-reason/comment-page-1/#comment-8115 Mon, 06 Aug 2007 14:52:05 +0000 http://www.whydontyou.org.uk/blog/2007/08/06/new-enemy-of-reason/#comment-8115 Heather, this is pretty disgusting. Good deconstruction. I took on the “scientism” thing in this post. These people are getting desperate. It’s the same type of argument used by so-called “climate skeptics” who aren’t skeptics at all but cynical political manipulators. The apologists don’t have any other frame of reference, so they go with what they know.

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By: Heather http://www.whydontyou.org.uk/blog/2007/08/06/new-enemy-of-reason/comment-page-1/#comment-8110 Mon, 06 Aug 2007 12:07:51 +0000 http://www.whydontyou.org.uk/blog/2007/08/06/new-enemy-of-reason/#comment-8110 I have to admit know more or less nothing about him really, except I’ve read Father Brown and I sort of half- remember reading a stuff about him being a Tory Party stalwart and very enthusiastic Catholic adherent.
I stand corrected.
Will use the miracle of the internet to find out a bit more.

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By: Deep Thought http://www.whydontyou.org.uk/blog/2007/08/06/new-enemy-of-reason/comment-page-1/#comment-8109 Mon, 06 Aug 2007 11:37:15 +0000 http://www.whydontyou.org.uk/blog/2007/08/06/new-enemy-of-reason/#comment-8109 Almost an aside – if you think G.K. Chesterton was an “extreme right-winger” you must not have read much of his works.

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