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Comments on: Self Defence or Self Delusion? (long) http://www.whydontyou.org.uk/blog/2007/07/17/self-defence-or-self-delusion/ Challenging the Zeitgeist Fri, 03 Aug 2007 21:41:05 +0000 hourly 1 By: TW http://www.whydontyou.org.uk/blog/2007/07/17/self-defence-or-self-delusion/comment-page-1/#comment-8064 Fri, 03 Aug 2007 21:41:05 +0000 http://www.whydontyou.org.uk/blog/2007/07/17/self-defence-or-self-delusion/#comment-8064 s the problem; you don’t know who it is or what their intentions are. Automatically assuming that he doesn’t want to come upstairs and hurt you might be a dangerous mistake. Regardless of the media’s tendency to blow everything up out of all proportion, the fact is there are a lot of sick people out there — is being prepared really such a bad idea?</blockquote> I am not automatically assuming he doesn't want to come upstairs and hurt you. I am saying that it makes more sense to me to defend somewhere which normally has a single point of entry than expose yourself to an unknown situation. In your bedroom you can control the access - even if you only have a light interior door this is still a single point of entry so you know where the intruder will come from. Once you venture out into what has become an unknown situation the risks multiply. You don't know how many intruders there are, if they are armed or what their intention is. From a purely military perspective fighting in built up areas is insanely manpower intensive because you have to make sure you can clear each room. Just because you have heard a burglar downstairs doesn't mean there isn't a quieter friend of his going through the medicine cabinet in your bathroom. As you go out, brandishing your crossbow, and head down stairs, who is guarding your rear? I agree wholeheartedly that the problem of defending the bedroom is the weak internal doors we have, but I suggest that if there is sufficient fear of intruders to consider arming yourself, the money and effort would be better spent shoring up your defences first. I can concede a possible compromise that a good solution would be to stay in the bedroom with the crossbow - then if the burglar forces the door you have a good, well framed, shot along with a huge amount of "self defence" cases should the CPS decide you used "excessive" force. One thing I still do not see as being sensible is leaving your safe haven and sallying forth to challenge the intruders. Yes, the law allows for citizens arrests and the like, but be realistic. Do you own things so valuable that you consider losing them more damaging than losing your life? As you say, a burglar who breaks in to an occupied house is far from the "normal" criminal so, while you may go downstairs to see a drunk teenager who will scarper, you could also find three junkies with knives. Taking one out may make your death seem more heroic but will that matter to you? Last point - it is an interesting postulate that if no one was prepared to confront intruders ever the rate of intrusion would increase. It has the nice ring of "common sense" truth but I am not convinced by it. It seems reasonable to assume that the set of burglars who don't burgle simply because they are frightened some one will defend is non-zero so the numbers may well go up - but I am not sure how the burglar would know for sure that no one would ever defend...]]> Hi Michael, thanks for taking the time to comment.

Actually, I think that the middle aged “professional” burglar is the one you are most likely to be able to scare off if you appear at the top of the stairs brandishing a weapon.

But that’s the problem; you don’t know who it is or what their intentions are. Automatically assuming that he doesn’t want to come upstairs and hurt you might be a dangerous mistake. Regardless of the media’s tendency to blow everything up out of all proportion, the fact is there are a lot of sick people out there — is being prepared really such a bad idea?

I am not automatically assuming he doesn’t want to come upstairs and hurt you. I am saying that it makes more sense to me to defend somewhere which normally has a single point of entry than expose yourself to an unknown situation.

In your bedroom you can control the access – even if you only have a light interior door this is still a single point of entry so you know where the intruder will come from. Once you venture out into what has become an unknown situation the risks multiply. You don’t know how many intruders there are, if they are armed or what their intention is.

From a purely military perspective fighting in built up areas is insanely manpower intensive because you have to make sure you can clear each room. Just because you have heard a burglar downstairs doesn’t mean there isn’t a quieter friend of his going through the medicine cabinet in your bathroom. As you go out, brandishing your crossbow, and head down stairs, who is guarding your rear?

I agree wholeheartedly that the problem of defending the bedroom is the weak internal doors we have, but I suggest that if there is sufficient fear of intruders to consider arming yourself, the money and effort would be better spent shoring up your defences first.

I can concede a possible compromise that a good solution would be to stay in the bedroom with the crossbow – then if the burglar forces the door you have a good, well framed, shot along with a huge amount of “self defence” cases should the CPS decide you used “excessive” force.

One thing I still do not see as being sensible is leaving your safe haven and sallying forth to challenge the intruders. Yes, the law allows for citizens arrests and the like, but be realistic. Do you own things so valuable that you consider losing them more damaging than losing your life? As you say, a burglar who breaks in to an occupied house is far from the “normal” criminal so, while you may go downstairs to see a drunk teenager who will scarper, you could also find three junkies with knives. Taking one out may make your death seem more heroic but will that matter to you?

Last point – it is an interesting postulate that if no one was prepared to confront intruders ever the rate of intrusion would increase. It has the nice ring of “common sense” truth but I am not convinced by it. It seems reasonable to assume that the set of burglars who don’t burgle simply because they are frightened some one will defend is non-zero so the numbers may well go up – but I am not sure how the burglar would know for sure that no one would ever defend…

]]>
By: Michael http://www.whydontyou.org.uk/blog/2007/07/17/self-defence-or-self-delusion/comment-page-1/#comment-8063 Fri, 03 Aug 2007 19:18:31 +0000 http://www.whydontyou.org.uk/blog/2007/07/17/self-defence-or-self-delusion/#comment-8063 If the intruder was a middle-aged man dressed in a cat-suit with a swag bag over his shoulder, who ‘only’ wanted to steal your TV and DVD player, most people would be better off doing the sensible (and responsible) thing of calling the police and hiding.

But that’s the problem; you don’t know who it is or what their intentions are. Automatically assuming that he doesn’t want to come upstairs and hurt you might be a dangerous mistake. Regardless of the media’s tendency to blow everything up out of all proportion, the fact is there are a lot of sick people out there — is being prepared really such a bad idea?

The fact that he’s entered your home while you’re there should be very worrying — if he was a career burglar, he certainly wouldn’t be much of one for making such a blundering mistake. So you have to take into consideration that he might be: violent, drunk, drugged up, or worst of all, an idiot — or maybe even all. He might leave quietly after clearing your living room out; or he might have heard a noise upstairs, decides it’s better if there’s no witnesses and comes to sort you out.

A typical inside door is made of light wood and held down with a few thin screws. If the unthinkable happened I’d imagine most would be surprised at how quickly it would be broken down. I bet the person hiding inside would be wishing he’d done the same as the paranoid lunatic down the internet who has a crossbow. 🙂

As you quite rightly said, the chances of all this happening are very low. But in the same way you plan what to do in case of fire, it’s common sense to have a plan for an intrusion.

I understand that the point you were trying to make was more about the have-a-go-heroes inflaming the situation by going at burglars like John Rambo, but the law states we all have a reasonable right to self-defence, defence of property and even to make a citizen’s arrest, despite what the tabloids say.

There’s a reason why bogus callers and con-artists usually target old women — they KNOW there’s practically zero chance of resistance. If no-one was prepared to confront intruders ever, I can guarantee we’d have a lot more break-ins, with all the added risks that come with it.

Finally, I want to assure all the women out there I’m not a sexist. I only referred to the intruder as a ‘he’ for simplicity’s sake. Thanks to equal rights women can be criminals too, if they like.

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By: TW http://www.whydontyou.org.uk/blog/2007/07/17/self-defence-or-self-delusion/comment-page-1/#comment-8032 Wed, 01 Aug 2007 17:55:43 +0000 http://www.whydontyou.org.uk/blog/2007/07/17/self-defence-or-self-delusion/#comment-8032 Thanks for the comment, but I think you missed some of the point I was trying to make.

The statistics and rarity of break ins were brought up to discuss the somewhat irrational fear people have of crime.

Having the crossbow under your bed might be a good idea. You might well be a good enough shot to be able to use it effectively while half asleep or in a stressful situation. What you have to be aware of,. though, is how much the situation will escalate when you confront the burglar with it.

Are you prepared for what to do if the burglar does not flee when you confront him? Are you prepared what to do if you fire the cross bow and for whatever reason it does not disable / kill the burglar? If there are two or more burglars are you capable of firing and reloading fast enough to prevent a rush and overpowering? What will you do if the burglar has a gun and you are brandishing a crossbow at him?

I am all for making people feel safe in their houses, but I do think there are better ways to do it. You may be skilled enough with your weapon of choice to use it properly, but not everyone is. Poor skills with a “defensive” weapon will simply cause the situation to escalate, often beyond the persons ability to defend themselves and then, rather than a break in, it becomes a murder.

Nothing I own is worth my life. If burglars break into my house, I am able to secure myself in the bedroom and call for assistance. While the police may be slow reacting to burglaries, they are faster if you are under siege in the bedroom.

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By: Michael http://www.whydontyou.org.uk/blog/2007/07/17/self-defence-or-self-delusion/comment-page-1/#comment-8031 Wed, 01 Aug 2007 17:43:27 +0000 http://www.whydontyou.org.uk/blog/2007/07/17/self-defence-or-self-delusion/#comment-8031 It doesn’t matter how rare being burgled is, according to statistics. The question is, what would you do if you were? I keep a crossbow under my bed, hopefully I’ll never have to use it and I doubt I ever will, but any sort of weapon increases your chances greatly if you just happen to be subject to a violent break-in, however improbable one may be. While the first thing you should be concerned with is calling the police, it’s a massive gamble to take expecting them to handle 100% of your personal safety.

I’m not a betting man but I would bet a pound to an empty crisp packet that a criminal could break into your home and make off with your belongings (or worse) before the police arrive…

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By: Why Dont You Blog? » Media Inspired Cluelessness http://www.whydontyou.org.uk/blog/2007/07/17/self-defence-or-self-delusion/comment-page-1/#comment-7821 Thu, 19 Jul 2007 17:50:26 +0000 http://www.whydontyou.org.uk/blog/2007/07/17/self-defence-or-self-delusion/#comment-7821 […] few days ago, I ranted about foolish people who thought having a hammer or baseball bat by the side of their bed was a “good idea” […]

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By: Heather http://www.whydontyou.org.uk/blog/2007/07/17/self-defence-or-self-delusion/comment-page-1/#comment-7792 Tue, 17 Jul 2007 22:07:24 +0000 http://www.whydontyou.org.uk/blog/2007/07/17/self-defence-or-self-delusion/#comment-7792 Spot on post.

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By: TW http://www.whydontyou.org.uk/blog/2007/07/17/self-defence-or-self-delusion/comment-page-1/#comment-7791 Tue, 17 Jul 2007 21:57:56 +0000 http://www.whydontyou.org.uk/blog/2007/07/17/self-defence-or-self-delusion/#comment-7791 Within the tiny set of people you describe (“people who actually act responsibly regarding gun ownership and who spend some time learning how to get the bullet from the clip to whatever needs a hole”) then I agree totally that it an effective way to punish a burglar. Fortunately this is pretty much totally illegal here in the UK.

Sadly, lots and lots of people fall into your latter category and are more of a danger to themselves. Despite their bravado, lots of people are unable to keep themselves calm and controlled enough to effectively kill an intruder in a panic situation, often late a night. Target discrimination is also problematic.

On the balance, I think most people – especially here in the UK – are deluding themselves if they think arming themselves is the best route to go down.

On a more philosophical note, a lot of it boils down to if the person feel the death sentence is suitable for burglary and if the person is happy to take on board all the new risks (killing relative by accident, drawing the weapon and missing, the general escalation of violence etc). At the end of the day, property is only property – it can be insured…

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By: Chris http://www.whydontyou.org.uk/blog/2007/07/17/self-defence-or-self-delusion/comment-page-1/#comment-7790 Tue, 17 Jul 2007 21:17:50 +0000 http://www.whydontyou.org.uk/blog/2007/07/17/self-defence-or-self-delusion/#comment-7790 While I completely agree that for many people, a weapon such as a hammer or bat by the bed may be a bad idea, and calling the police is often better, I have to disagree and say that not many things will stop an intruder quite as fast as a 9mm hole in the brain. That includes the police, unless their response time is less than the muzzle velocity of the bullet. Keeping in mind I’m limiting that recommendation to people who actually act responsibly regarding gun ownership and who spend some time learning how to get the bullet from the clip to whatever needs a hole. Otherwise you are more of a danger to yourself and your family, and would be better off throwing the gun at the intruder.

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